Topic: Colors

[Skxawng]

The primary reason that we evolved to only see a limited amount of radiation, is because our atmosphere absorbs/reflects/blocks most radiation beyond the visible spectrum, and because nothing beyond the small range of wavelengths made it to the planet, there was no reason that a mutation allowing infrared sight gives a survival advantage, and therefore any such mutation is unlikely to proliferate past random chance. 

The survival guide notes that Pandora has a similar atmosphere to earth's, though about 20% denser, with far more carbon dioxide (about 18%). In addition, the planet is very volcanically active which adds hydrogen sulfide, a toxic gass. In addition, the atmosphere contains a lot of xenon.  I am not sure what elements absorb which wavelengths of radiation, but I think its safe to say, given the reds we see on toruk, and in sunsets, that red is most definitely a visible light. That we have seen all the colors in the movie indicates that all the wavelengths are not absorbed quickly enough in the atmosphere, and therefore all wavelengths are visible to the Na'vi. If, however, there was a distinctive lack of red in the movie, as in the red channel was completely absent, then we'd know that red does not exist for them.

Also, it is mentioned in the survival guide that there are sources of radiation within the planet itself and in mountains, which would account for the 2nd eye we see on most of the fauna of pandora.

I think that they would have multiple words for colors/wavelengths we cannot see.  I would suggest:

"Ultra-Blue" --- wavelengths past indigo
"Ultra-Red" --- wavelengths past red

[wm.annis]

"Ultra-Blue" --- wavelengths past indigo
"Ultra-Red" --- wavelengths past red

This is another "20 Questions" matter, probably.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Color vision is, as has been pointed out, kind of a misnomer. We only know what red is because we have decided to call what we see as red, red.

Consider that the active part of blood, hemoglobin, has a absorption minima at about 660 nm. This absorption minima is the same on earth as it is on Pandora (or any other location) for the same substance. The absorption and reflection of energy of hemoglobin is closely related to the resonance of the porphyrin ring that holds the iron. (I am assuming here that the blood chemistry of humans and the Na`vi are very similar.) In any case, blood belongs in the circulatory system. Its presence outside the circulatory system means two things to an organism that can sense that wavelength: 1. Something is seriously wrong, in that their own (or someone they care about) blood is visible when it shouldn't be. Or, the visible blood is in the wounded or opened-up body of a creature they are eating. Thus, this sensed wavelength is 1.) a warning of danger or 2.) an indication that food is at hand. Thus, felines can see only red as a color in their otherwise monochrome vision, as anything that would be food to them is most likely bloody. The ability to see blood-color is important to their survival. For us as humans, the color red carries a strong sense of warning with it because it is the color of light we see reflected from blood. Now to a Na`vi, I suspect that they can strongly see this color because 1.) their blood is red (stated I think in the ASG and seen in the film), and 2.) they are hunters, and blood is a natural and normal sight in an animal they killed for dinner. In fact, the absence of the blood-color on a dead animal would mean the meat is probably not fresh anymore.

A similar agrument can be made for the color green, which is the color of light reflected off of plants. (Thanks again to a porphyrin ring that contains magnesium rather than iron!) Green is really an idea we have of light reflected from chlorophyll at about 580 nm.

And other creatures could have a different sensitivity pattern. Pit viper snakes, for instance, can 'see' in the infrared. (And 'infrared' and 'ultraviolet' are just concepts to us humans, because we cannot visually sense these wavelengths.

Now, do the Na`vi see this red as red? Maybe this color is green. Or yellow. The perceived color (and 'color' may be a construct unique to humans, anyway). But in any case, their visual system is such that they have a strong perception to the light wavelength of blood.

That said, I think this is pretty abstract to anyone but hardcore science or science fiction people, who understand that what we call light is nothing but electromagnetic radiation in a certain range of wavelengths. How this energy is perceived by an organism is everything.  For the sake of a much wider audience of people, I think the case could be made that the Na`vi see color much the way we do, with perhaps an extended blue-violet range. I also like the idea that they might be able to see a fourth primary color in the longwave UV region.

But I am not going to be happy until there is a Na`vi word for the colors 'Puce', 'goldenrod' and 'putty' 

[Kì'eyawn]

On the color vision topic, i'd just like to point out that while red was the one color photoreceptor to show up in felids, dichromat primates (which is most primates) are red-green colorblind--meaning they all have the blue photoreceptor but are missing either the green or the red.

Some food for thought: In many primate species, males are dichromats, but almost all females are trichromats (i.e., they have the same color vision as humans).  And recently, scientists have noticed a very small percentage of the female human population are *quadrochromats.  Just some food for thought.

[wm.annis]

I recommend people come up with, say 3 or 4 color palettes, and let people vote on which ones they think we should ask Frommer for.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

I recommend people come up with, say 3 or 4 color palettes, and let people vote on which ones they think we should ask Frommer for.

OK, I will take a stab at it. I will propose two different color schemes, based on entirely different reasonings. However, they end up nearly the same. I do know there are already Na`vi words for blue and yellow, as well as black, gray and white. But I will include these colors in the list for sake of completeness.

Scheme 1: Based on additive and subtractive colors.
Additive colors are based on the colors of light. Particularly, light from color display devices, like the computer you are using to read this. The three primary colors are red, green, blue. You mix these three colors to get the three secondary colors: yellow cyan and magenta. (BTW, these, along with black and white are the colors in the color bars test signal.) Mixing all three primaries together gives you white.

Subtractive colors are based om what can be printed on paper, and rely on reflected light to give their colors. Primary colors are red, yellow, blue. Secondary colors are orange, green and violet. Mixing all three primaries together gives you brown.

So, if you combine these colors together and add black, gray and white, you get:

white, gray, black (for which there are words already, if I recall.)
yellow
orange
red
magenta
cyan
green
brown
blue
violet

Scheme 2: Based on the spectrum, with some additions.

The colors of the spectrum of light that we humans can see is:

red
orange
yellow
green
blue
indigo
violet

Add brown, an important color that really isn't a color.
Add black, gray and white.

Additional thoughts:
I favor the first scheme, even though it is longer. It covers more color possibilities. The second scheme is heavy in the blues. That said, the ability to see ultraviolet might make a blue-heavy color scheme appropriate.

Both schemes might benefit from a word for 'ultraviolet'. But the colors visible to us are more needed for conversational Na`vi.

Now, for both schemes, if a modifier for 'dark' or 'light' (these modifiers may exist already) is added, it effectively triples the color choices without tripling the word count. (For instance 'light blue', 'blue', 'dark blue'.)(hopefully, these modifiers won't be infixes!)  Lastly, you might add a term for 'glow', but I think that also exists (don't have my lexicon handy right now.)

These would all be class A words, as color terms are used frequently in  conversation. There might be some other colors specifically related to a specific item that has a distinctive color. These would have a term of their own for that particular color. But that sort of thing is likely class B or C.

[wm.annis]

Just for fun, here's my palette —

 red-orange-brown
 yellow-green
 forest-green
 turquoise (or cyan, if you must) (ikran color!)
 purple
 black
 white
 "chalky" modifier

Quite a few critters on Pandora have chalky, pastel tones to the colors they do have, so rather than the light and dark, the "not-quite-pastel" idea seems useful.

Edit: this list is eccentric, I know, but not unmotivated.   We can probably take another palette for voting, and let Frommer figure out the details of whatever we give him.

[abi]

There are earthly languages, which don't make a clear difference between some green and blue colors...

I agree, I think it would be interesting if Na'vi had a set of different colour words for English. Maybe it could be more "alien" like if it violated these rules??

Maybe something like:
white/red/yellow
blue
green
ultraviolet
black

Also it's interesting to note that the way they'd see could also depend on the heat of their star. Our star is of medium heat, so it gives off an abundant amount of white light ( which breaks into the visible spectrum), hence why it would be favorable for organisms to view their world this way on earth. Of course, humans could see just fine on pandora so I guess they have a similar sun to ours (or maybe a binary system could be added into the mix? ).

['eylan na'viyä]

Also it's interesting to note that the way they'd see could also depend on the heat of their star. Our star is of medium heat, so it gives off an abundant amount of white light ( which breaks into the visible spectrum), hence why it would be favorable for organisms to view their world this way on earth. Of course, humans could see just fine on pandora so I guess they have a similar sun to ours (or maybe a binary system could be added into the mix? ).

Thats an interesting point !
On Pandore there are many different types of illumination. I think its not that much the different stars(AFAIK AC-A emmits the vast majority of light) but there are many different possibilities when the suns are absent http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/different-concepts-for-light-%28n-%29/

So, do the Na'vi name the color of things about what they know how they look eg: at day OR about how they see it at the moment ? Or do they use both ways ?