Concerning the Phonetics’ site

[Plumps]

Ma frapo,

I don't know who is responsible for the phonetics' page but it seems to me that it contains a few errors (the real linguists should come forward, though, to varify my twisted knowledge )

The English example for ts with *sent is wrong ... I'd vote for "tsunami" or "cats"

Literal and English examples for ew & ew are strange (I think this was discussed elsewhere already)

k has not the value of *cat or *kill but only the one in "skill", same goes for p & t as well, it's "spin" and "stop" only, not *pen and *two

[Kamean]

You're right. I have not looked there for a long time.

[Tirea Aean]

You're right. I have not looked there for a long time.

[Payoang]

You're right. I have not looked there for a long time.

[guest2859]

Ma frapo,

I don't know who is responsible for the phonetics' page but it seems to me that it contains a few errors (the real linguists should come forward, though, to varify my twisted knowledge )

The English example for ts with *sent is wrong ... I'd vote for "tsunami" or "cats"

Literal and English examples for ew & ew are strange (I think this was discussed elsewhere already)

k has not the value of *cat or *kill but only the one in "skill", same goes for p & t as well, it's "spin" and "stop" only, not *pen and *two

I wouldn't understand the differences with the P's, T's and K's because I say them all the same, because naturally I pronounce them all the same, regardless of position. (So as I can hear myself)

[Plumps]

k has not the value of *cat or *kill but only the one in "skill", same goes for p & t as well, it's "spin" and "stop" only, not *pen and *two

I wouldn't understand the differences with the P's, T's and K's because I say them all the same, because naturally I pronounce them all the same, regardless of position. (So as I can hear myself)

Oh, but you can by a simple little experiment if you don't mind.

Hold your hand before your mouth and speak the words

     pin — spin
     top — stop
     kin — skin

You should feel more air touching your hand with all the words that begin with p, t, k and less air with those that begin with a cluster containing p, t, k. That is because the quality of these are different.
And in Na'vi all p, t, and k's have this quality with less air, even when standing alone. It takes some practice – I didn't do this either in the beginning – but it's possible. And I think the audio recordings we have from Dr Frommer help to hear it as well.

['Oma Tirea]

The English example for ts with *sent is wrong ... I'd vote for "tsunami" or "cats"

I'm now using zz in pizza as the best example fko will get

I haven't visited that page in a while because of its inaccuracy.  Ngian if fko would like suggestions, tsun oe tivìng ngaru

[Taronyu]

Seeing the 'literal' phonetic help still makes me want to break down and cry. 

[Tirea Aean]

Seeing the 'literal' phonetic help still makes me want to break down and cry. 

Yes because the whole world of normal nonlinguists can read IPA like some of us. I think learning IPA is great and better, more accurate than literals like this but isn't the "simplest" most lay way to do it. That's why this is still occuring. IPA looks confusing and scary! :O (what's IPA? O.o)

//#This post loaded with Sarcasm®# //

[Plumps]

That's why I wanted to draw attention to it...
I rarely use the start page because I go directly to the forums... that's why I neglected to see that for so long. A friend of mine brought these inconsistancies to my attention and I just wanted to vote for a work-over.

The English example for ts with *sent is wrong ... I'd vote for "tsunami" or "cats"

I'm now using zz in pizza as the best example fko will get

Actually, that's a really great example!

['Oma Tirea]

That's why I wanted to draw attention to it...
I rarely use the start page because I go directly to the forums... that's why I neglected to see that for so long. A friend of mine brought these inconsistancies to my attention and I just wanted to vote for a work-over.

I vote for one as well.  I could basically rewrite the whole page.

Spoiler: Details for improvement

First off, it's better to organize the Na'vi letters in the alphabet according to the official order, which doesn't follow the scientific spellings: ' A AW AY Ä E EW EY F H I Ì K Kx L LL M N NG O P Px R RR S T Ts Tx U V W Y Z.  That said, Ä, Kx, Ng, Px, Ts, and Tx are out of place.

' is missing from this list!  IPA: [ʔ]; Literal example: 'UH; Exglish example: the - in "uh-oh"
a: literal AA(H)
aw: literal OW, not AOU
ay: literal I/EYE
ä: literal AH(H)
ew: literal EH-OO (smooth glide); Better example: exaggerated OH
ey: literal AY
f: literal F, not FF
h: literal H, not HH
i: "city" isn't the best example, and is potentially confusing
ì: literal IH, not IIH
k: "cat" isn't the best example, although "scat" works (unless included for contrast, in which a better example is "kill")
l: literal L, not LL
ll: IPA needs fixing; literal LL(L), not LDL; Another example that works in some accents of English: "pull"
m and n: literal M and N, not MM and NN
ng: literal NG not NNG
o: better examples: "so" "no" "whoa".  Just avoid any words with an "ow" spelling.
p: "pen" isn't the best example...
r: literal R; Best English examples: tt in "butter", or "red".  Exactly like a Spanish R.
rr: IPA needs fixing; literal RR(R)
s: literal S, not SS
t: missing an unaspirated t example!  Try "stop" and "top" for some contrast.
ts: literal TS, not TSS.  "Send" as an example is NÌTXAN FE' NÌ'AW!!  "Pizza" is the best it gets.
u: literal OO, not OOU; better examples: "soup" "too".  Just try to avoid any words with a plain u spelling, as these could be a "you" sound instead in some English dialects.
v: literal V, not VUH
w and y: literal W and Y, not W' and Y'
z: literal Z, not ZZ
Ejectives: IPA is incorrect.  Everything else is, for the most part, forgivable.
Also for p, t, and k, the apostrophe isn't really needed.

OPTIONAL: include a Na'vi word example for all of the consonants:  I suggest the following, though feel free to use your own examples: 'aw, ma, law, hay, kä, tse, new, key, fa, hek, li, mllte, mì, ko, kxa, law, maw, na, nga, po, pey, pxaw, rum, krr, sop, tun, tseng, txan, lu, vewng, wok, yìm, zo


Consonants
Don't bother with the highlighting.  It's confusing.

Vowels, Diphthongs, and "Pseudovowels"
Examples need fixing.  See above.  It's also a good idea to capitalize "front" and "back" in the headers, for consistency and such.

For ay and ey, the IPA is incorrect.  "Diphthong" in the header is also misspelled.

Syllable structure and phonotactic constraints

To sum up the "final consonants" section more succinctly, say that a fricative, affricate, or approximant can never occur at the end of a syllable.

Vowel clusters
"Tsaleioae" is not (yet) a word.  However "'eoio" is, so use that instead until "tsaleioae" gets approved.

Finally, the lenition section could use a little simplifying for less confusion.


In short, keep it succinct!  Alìm kä 'it!

I could even suggest improvements for other pages as well.

[Irtaviš Ačankif]

The information (...) is not intended to be anything like a complete description; the Phonetics and Phonology section is the most complete, but the Morphology and Syntax sections are mere sketches. Given my contractual obligations, a more thorough treatment awaits another venue. But I hope this sketch will answer a few questions and perhaps serve to counterbalance some of the erroneous information that has made its way to the Internet.

This is a pretty outdated description. When I first visited here in early 2010, that paragraph was EXACTLY what prevented me from learning Na'vi at that time. Now it absolutely does not apply and it only dissuades newcomers by shouting "Hey Na'vi is incomplete, everything is just guesses, probably everything here is ungrammatical, and 20th Century Fox hates it!"

You really can't rely on everybody being linguistic nerds who just enjoy reconstructing a language that doesn't even have a published lexicons. Those "nerds" are what started LN up, but now that Frommer has released so much information, that above paragraph is an insult to the rapid development of the language.

[Payoang]

....

"disgusting" isn't a word we use around here to describe things. Perhaps I can recommend keeping your tone a bit friendlier.

That said, yes: the entire LearnNavi.org website needs an overhaul. I've been setting up a Wordpress install over the past few weeks, which would allow editing by anyone with permissions.

[Toruk Makto]

The information (...) is not intended to be anything like a complete description; the Phonetics and Phonology section is the most complete, but the Morphology and Syntax sections are mere sketches. Given my contractual obligations, a more thorough treatment awaits another venue. But I hope this sketch will answer a few questions and perhaps serve to counterbalance some of the erroneous information that has made its way to the Internet.

This is disgusting to say the least. When I first visited here in early 2010, that paragraph was EXACTLY what prevented me from learning Na'vi at that time. Now it absolutely does not apply and it only dissuades newcomers by shouting "Hey Na'vi is incomplete, everything is just guesses, probably everything here is ungrammatical, and 20th Century Fox hates it!"

You really can't rely on everybody being linguistic nerds who just enjoy reconstructing a language that doesn't even have a published lexicons. Those "nerds" are what started LN up, but now that Frommer has released so much information, that above paragraph is an insult to the rapid development of the language.

  Ease up, Champ.  We like to keep things friendly here. We know the website needs to be updated and it will be, but posts like yours do not help.

Markì