Author Topic: Message From Dr. Frommer  (Read 3374 times)

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Offline Toruk Makto

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Message From Dr. Frommer
« on: January 02, 2010, 01:08:21 am »
  I just got this email from Dr. Frommer tonight. Some of it was a generic form reply he apparently is sending to people that I have quoted below and some was a personal reply that I will not include here. It was a quirk of synchronicity that I actually received the message while I was watching the film through again for the 6th or 7th time at the IMAX.

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Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 19:57:21 -0800
From: "Frommer, Paul R" <[email protected]>
To: "Mark Miller" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Please allow me to add to the chorus    
 

Kaltxì, and thanks for your interest in Na’vi.

The enthusiastic response to the language has been very gratifying. I wish I could answer all your e-mails personally, but the volume has been staggering, so I hope you’ll forgive this generic message.

Irayo to everyone who thanked me for the effort and wished me well. It’s been a privilege to be involved in something as extraordinary as “Avatar,” and I couldn’t be happier that people feel my contribution added to the film.

For those who have expressed interest in learning the language, thank you! The way Na’vi will live and grow is for enthusiasts like yourselves to take it up and expand it beyond its present boundaries. I hope that not too long from now there will be learning tools available to make that possible. Film consultants like me, however, don’t own the rights to the products or services we provide, so I can’t put out any such materials on my own—they’ll have to be in cooperation with the people who brought you “Avatar.” We’ve already begun thinking about that, and I hope that some official form of “Learn Na’vi!” will soon be available to the public.

In the meantime, a number of people have put up unofficial web sites talking about various aspects of Na’vi. Some of those are quite good, others are only speculative, and still others are highly inaccurate. The Wikipedia article on Na’vi, although not a complete description of the language, is well done and reliable.

Kìyevame ulte Eywa ngahu. See you again, and may Eywa be with you.

[deleted]

Paul Frommer

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 I don't know if this means he wants people to start developing the language outside of his influence, or wait for some kind of official site from the studio.

 - Txepäsiyu

Lì’fyari leNa’vi ’Rrtamì, vay set ’almong a fra’u zera’u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://eanaeltu.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Offline Txon Tompa

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2010, 01:12:08 am »
cool, i think he wanst us to expand it

but we should really wait for avatar 2 if there is one
oel ngati kameie

Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2010, 01:16:39 am »
I got the same message. I think he rather us wait for a while, at least until we can get word of when we can expect something like "Learn Na'Vi" We don't want to make up a bunch of stuff and then be completely wrong. We want to go the way of the Klingon not Vulcan. Once we have a few more thousand words and all the rules for grammar we'll be able to expand on our own. Right now it's just to small to do much with out going completely off course.

Also note that if you replied you'll get an auto message saying he won't be back till the 11 and "Ayftozä lefpom ayngaru nìwotx! Happy Holidays to You All!"
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Offline Tìsyaw Nantangä

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2010, 01:18:08 am »
Good stuff. I took it as meaning expanding beyond the 4 walls of cinema, but I could be wrong. I usually am.
Mì saw, kawtul tsun stivawm ngayä ayzawngit.

Offline Toruk Makto

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2010, 01:22:50 am »
 I guess the best we can hope for is that the 'people who brought us Avatar' will let this language live and expand without imposing too much corporate BS on it. As for a Learn Na'vi resource, we already have one right here. They should adopt this site as the official one since it already has so much momentum.  ;)

- Txepäsiyu

Lì’fyari leNa’vi ’Rrtamì, vay set ’almong a fra’u zera’u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://eanaeltu.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2010, 01:25:24 am »
Well I hope Fox aren't idiots since if they do try to control the language to much it'll either die or we'll rebel and make it our own. Thankfully I think Cameron has a lot of weight behind everything and he wants to see it flourish so I say we trust him for now.
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Offline Toruk Makto

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2010, 01:27:56 am »
Well, hopefully Cameron trumps the Golden Rule (he who has the gold, makes the rules)...

Lì’fyari leNa’vi ’Rrtamì, vay set ’almong a fra’u zera’u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://eanaeltu.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2010, 01:30:23 am »
*big creepy Jafar grin*

Well just the fact that he was able to take such a risk and make a movie like Avatar shows that he can do just about whatever he wants at that company, and he really wants Na'Vi to do well. I have little doubt that in a few weeks once some of the rush has died down they'll release some good information.
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2010, 01:33:15 am »
The Wikipedia article on Na’vi, although not a complete description of the language, is well done and reliable.

That actually just gave us a BUNCH of new information.  The wikipedia article had a LOT of speculative content, and he's basically just said the speculation is correct.

Things that Wikipedia contains that we didn't have confirmation on:

  • Subjunctive (iv) infix
  • All 5 tense infixes (Including ìy and am)
  • Participle infix (us) - though this is a fairly recent addition at this point
  • tì- nì- le- prefixes to change parts of speech
Among other things
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Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2010, 01:37:09 am »
Awesome. Hopefully people have been keeping an eye on wiki in case an jerk decided to change it.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Offline Naki'Malis

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2010, 01:51:37 am »
For some perspective, several quotes from interviews from Frommer.
(most recent dec 30'th)
Quote
But once the holidays are over and school is back in sesson, Frommer is planning to check in with Twentieth Century Fox, the studio behind "Avatar," and with Lightstorm Entertainment, director James Cameron's production company.

(on Dec 15)
Quote
I'm still working and I hope that the language will have a life of its own," the professor said.

Quote
"I was surprised they all did very well, and it gave me hope, too, that other people will try to learn it and speak it," Frommer said. "I'm excited because there is going be a Pandora-pedia online and a lot of material for people to learn more about the planet. There's this incredible devotion to detail. It's been fascinating to me. It's almost academic in its approach."

Frommer finds himself walking the campus sidewalks and talking to himself in the language. He has attempted to write poetry, too. It wouldn't be surprising if some of his couplets were forlorn -- it's lonely being the only person speaking a language. "I just wish," he said, "that I had someone to talk to."

Quote
Given my contractual obligations, a more thorough treatment awaits another venue.

And perhaps the best reason.
(from a dec 1st interview)
Quote
Something like Klingon, to compare it to another language that was developed for science fiction?

Yeah. Klingon is a gold standard for this alien-language niche, if you want to call it that. And that’s much more developed. At this point, it’s been around a long time. I have a translation of Hamlet, on my bookshelf, into Klingon.

Really!?

Yes. This exists. You can actually buy it on Amazon. People have really jumped into that and developed it probably beyond the vision of the original creator, who was Marc Okrand. If Na’vi ever developed into something like that, that’d be quite a thrill.

Would fans help develop it? Is that how it works?

You know, I’m not quite sure how it happened with Klingon. I’m pretty sure it was developed by people beyond the originator. If this ever took off and it got to that point where other people began developing it, that would be great, as long as they did it correctly, within the guidelines of the grammar, of course.

(Emphasis parts by me.)

Personally i would say, that given the reaction of people really interested in the language it should not be hard for Prof. Frommer to convince the studio(s) that, -Yes it is worth publishing a Na'vi teaching book-  The immediate fact is that the studios will have to be back in the office after the holiday/new years break for him to even approach them about it first.   But after that time it may require a public interest (ie petition/letter ect.) to help confirm that we really are willing to have the (money) (time) (interest) to learn it.

So for now, the best approach is to wait.  But there is hope and the positive chance soon we will have more to the language.
Always listening, always learning.

Offline Brainiac

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2010, 01:55:51 am »
The Wikipedia article on Na’vi, although not a complete description of the language, is well done and reliable.

That actually just gave us a BUNCH of new information.  The wikipedia article had a LOT of speculative content, and he's basically just said the speculation is correct.

Things that Wikipedia contains that we didn't have confirmation on:

  • Subjunctive (iv) infix
  • All 5 tense infixes (Including ìy and am)
  • Participle infix (us) - though this is a fairly recent addition at this point
  • tì- nì- le- prefixes to change parts of speech
Among other things

This was very helpful.
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Offline Tanhì'itan

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2010, 08:53:47 am »
 I just got this email from Dr. Frommer tonight. Some of it was a generic form reply he apparently is sending to people that I have quoted below and some was a personal reply that I will not include here. It was a quirk of synchronicity that I actually received the message while I was watching the film through again for the 6th or 7th time at the IMAX.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I don't know if this means he wants people to start developing the language outside of his influence, or wait for some kind of official site from the studio.

 - Txepäsiyu

Firstly, this was a really informative post and it is always delightful to hear the words of Proffesor Frommer. I did feel he was sending us warning that we should avoid speculative and unconfirmed information, not a huge "STOP-DONT-TRY" warning, but more of a "Don't go too far off tangent." He clearly wants us to keep the interest, and he seems that he is advocating an offical publication in the future, we just must be patient.

Well I hope Fox aren't idiots since if they do try to control the language to much it'll either die or we'll rebel and make it our own. Thankfully I think Cameron has a lot of weight behind everything and he wants to see it flourish so I say we trust him for now.

Rebellion and Copyright infringement: definately a viable last resort.




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Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2010, 04:16:00 pm »
Well so long as we don't sell anything under Na'Vi how much of it would be copyright infringement? Especially if we had to rebel and make it our own, eventually it would just have the basic grammar and a thousand or so words that matched. You can't really sue someone for speaking...

That being said I hope that isn't the route we have to take, I would much rather that we can cooperate with Fox.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Offline Roiki

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2010, 06:31:45 pm »
The one nasty thing that can happen if we start developing the language on our own would be the emergence of two different "dialects" of Na'vi, ours and the one developed for the latter movies and other media of the franchise. Not necessarily a bad thing but i'd rather not see that happening. Us developing it here isn't copyright infringement unless we try to sell it, not really sure about the name but most likely we couldn't use that.

Rebellion is always a viable action.
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2010, 07:06:01 pm »
I think if we started developing on our own it would go much father than just being a different dialect. It's way to small of a language so there is no way of creating vocab that matches Frommer's. What we developed would end up being a new language that as the same roots as Na'Vi, we would have to pretend that it's the language of the Na'Vi on the other side of the moon.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Offline Night Raider

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2010, 07:18:06 pm »
I have sent Dr. Frommer a direct question, whether or not we should continue developing the language on our own. I states all the pros and cons of all the sides. Let's hopeI do get a reply and then we will know what exactly we need to do from now on.
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Offline Barontom

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2010, 07:45:29 pm »
Well i think we might have to speak to him in person , and maybe we can work out a deal to help develop the language for the upcoming movies etc.

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2010, 07:50:49 pm »
I have sent Dr. Frommer a direct question, whether or not we should continue developing the language on our own. I states all the pros and cons of all the sides. Let's hopeI do get a reply and then we will know what exactly we need to do from now on.

There can be only cons to such a scheme.

Do you walk up onto the stage during a concert and take over the place of a musician?  Do you grab a paint brush when you walk into a museum and touch up paintings?  No.

Much less capable people could have been chosen to create the language for the Na'vi.  The very appeal of the language is a measure of Frommer's success.  Language design by committee can only result in a mess.  Let the creator of the language do his job without interference.
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Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Message From Dr. Frommer
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2010, 07:54:34 pm »
I have sent Dr. Frommer a direct question, whether or not we should continue developing the language on our own. I states all the pros and cons of all the sides. Let's hopeI do get a reply and then we will know what exactly we need to do from now on.

Quote
There can be only cons to such a scheme.

Do you walk up onto the stage during a concert and take over the place of a musician?  Do you grab a paint brush when you walk into a museum and touch up paintings?  No.

Much less capable people could have been chosen to create the language for the Na'vi.  The very appeal of the language is a measure of Frommer's success.  Language design by committee can only result in a mess.  Let the creator of the language do his job without interference.

I agree to a point. Right now at such a young phase we really need to leave Frommer to it to let it grow, but languages are not an individual's painting, they need a community to fully grow and flesh out. After we have more to go on we can start expanding with out having our hand held the entire way.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


 

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