Official Na'vi Dictionary

Started by Tirea Aean, May 23, 2011, 11:59:18 AM

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Tirea Aean


Puvomun

Quote from: Markì on July 12, 2011, 01:50:02 PM
This system has a very well defined sense of who it likes and doesn't like.

Oh, and you have to bring it cookies from time to time...

HRH!!!
Krr a lì'fya lam sraw, may' frivìp utralit.

Ngopyu ayvurä.

Blue Elf

Quote
Quote from: Blue Elf on July 12, 2011, 01:41:53 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 12, 2011, 12:07:49 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on July 11, 2011, 04:21:48 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 11, 2011, 04:14:24 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on July 11, 2011, 02:39:21 PM
I got idea from the hell - has dictionary some way marked ditransitive (or how linguists call it) verbs or one must guess it "on fly" when trying to use them?
no, there is no current convention for ditransitives. (that is, if you refer to verbs which take BOTH a direct and inderect object.)
Seems I used incorrect term. What I'm thinking about are verbs which can be used both transitively and intrasitively.

Like: Oel yerikit taron. vs Oe taron.

what makes any transitive verb exempt from this?
Sorry, I don't understand your question. Anyway I probably found the correct term - ambitransitive verbs(?)

I mean what is keeping ALL transitives from being able to be used like that?
So according you EVERY vtr. CAN be used intransitively? It is too unbelievable
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


'Oma Tirea

Quote from: Blue Elf on July 12, 2011, 02:23:59 PM
Quote
Quote from: Blue Elf on July 12, 2011, 01:41:53 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 12, 2011, 12:07:49 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on July 11, 2011, 04:21:48 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 11, 2011, 04:14:24 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on July 11, 2011, 02:39:21 PM
I got idea from the hell - has dictionary some way marked ditransitive (or how linguists call it) verbs or one must guess it "on fly" when trying to use them?
no, there is no current convention for ditransitives. (that is, if you refer to verbs which take BOTH a direct and inderect object.)
Seems I used incorrect term. What I'm thinking about are verbs which can be used both transitively and intrasitively.

Like: Oel yerikit taron. vs Oe taron.

what makes any transitive verb exempt from this?
Sorry, I don't understand your question. Anyway I probably found the correct term - ambitransitive verbs(?)

I mean what is keeping ALL transitives from being able to be used like that?
So according you EVERY vtr. CAN be used intransitively? It is too unbelievable

It is a little something (IIRC) called the antipassive.

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Tirea Aean

Quote
Quote
I mean what is keeping ALL transitives from being able to be used like that?
So according you EVERY vtr. CAN be used intransitively? It is too unbelievable

why not? (also, I'm not God and I can be wrong. ;P)

Quote from: 'Oma Tirea on July 12, 2011, 02:26:06 PM
It is a little something (IIRC) called the antipassive.



indeed.

Blue Elf

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Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 12, 2011, 02:35:10 PM
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I mean what is keeping ALL transitives from being able to be used like that?
So according you EVERY vtr. CAN be used intransitively? It is too unbelievable

why not? (also, I'm not God and I can be wrong. ;P)
because verbs without object can create incomplete sentence, which has no reason. Some examples:
Oe tsre'i (what did I throw, where, why?)
Po serar (but what?)
Ayoe 'ärìp (but what we move?)
Not all vtr's can be used as vin.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tirea Aean

Quote from: Blue Elf on July 12, 2011, 05:10:53 PM
Quote
Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 12, 2011, 02:35:10 PM
Quote
I mean what is keeping ALL transitives from being able to be used like that?
So according you EVERY vtr. CAN be used intransitively? It is too unbelievable

why not? (also, I'm not God and I can be wrong. ;P)
because verbs without object can create incomplete sentence, which has no reason. Some examples:
Oe tsre'i (what did I throw, where, why?)
Po serar (but what?)
Ayoe 'ärìp (but what we move?)
Not all vtr's can be used as vin.


context? previous sentences in conversation?

'Oma Tirea

Or it could just be a general statement about something one does.
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Tirea Aean

a noun and a verb form the most basic simple sentence. it does not have to be specific. of course with no previous context, a noun verb sentence with a transitive verb with the direct object left out will lead to the question of what the direct object IS.

or am I shamefully wrong about ALL this?

Tanri

I think that all of you three have a little truth.
Technically, it is possible to use every verb intransitively, but the question is - how the listener will understand them.

There are two possibilities:
1) the verb is a general statement of doing some activity, as 'Oma Tirea said.
2) the verb doesn't really make sense without an object, and the listener is required to get one from the context.

IMHO, the majority of transitive verbs falls to the category 1) because they make sense even without object. For example:
-Oel stolawm futa nga tamaron trram. Lu tìngay srak?
-Srane, oe tamaron.


But, there are surely a verbs, difficult to use without object at all. Maybe "kin, may', munge etc.", but the specific usage of such a verb can clearly be influenced by native language or by way of thinking of every person individually - so it is very hard to say: "This is completely wrong!".

So, i think that we cannot make a list of transitive verbs, whose intransitive usage will be forbidden by rule - just because the suitability of specific verb usage cannot be expressed with binary variable yes/no, but in reality, it lies somewhere between. Only the person who speaks or write is the responsible one for choosing appropriate words - regarding the ability of listeners or readers to understand them cleanly.
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Eywa'eveng-tìranyu

"taronyut yom smarìl" is doubled.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Eywa'eveng-tìranyu on July 16, 2011, 12:36:16 PM
"taronyut yom smarìl" is doubled.

crap. Somehow I KNEW that would happen...

Toruk Makto


Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

'Oma Tirea

!Idea: the verb for "love" is yawne lu, is intransitive unlike in English, and takes the dative just like si verbs.

Worth adding to the dictionary?

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Tirea Aean

Quote from: 'Oma Tirea on July 17, 2011, 10:27:03 PM
!Idea: the verb for "love" is yawne lu, is intransitive unlike in English, and takes the dative just like si verbs.

Worth adding to the dictionary?



FASCINATING! It will perhaps stop people from saying "oe tìyawn nga" (not like they look at the part of speech anyway...)

I'm not sure how I feel about this in the dictionary. but this is a great new way to look at it! what do you all think?

Puvomun

Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 17, 2011, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: 'Oma Tirea on July 17, 2011, 10:27:03 PM
!Idea: the verb for "love" is yawne lu, is intransitive unlike in English, and takes the dative just like si verbs.

Worth adding to the dictionary?


FASCINATING! It will perhaps stop people from saying "oe tìyawn nga" (not like they look at the part of speech anyway...)
Really. I cringe when I see uses like that (and other ways of abusing Na'vi).

Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 17, 2011, 10:33:01 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about this in the dictionary. but this is a great new way to look at it! what do you all think?
It was used by karyu Pawl on many occasions. I don't see a problem adding it to the dictionary, as the other .*yawne.* words are in there as well.
Krr a lì'fya lam sraw, may' frivìp utralit.

Ngopyu ayvurä.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Puvomun on July 17, 2011, 11:28:08 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 17, 2011, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: 'Oma Tirea on July 17, 2011, 10:27:03 PM
!Idea: the verb for "love" is yawne lu, is intransitive unlike in English, and takes the dative just like si verbs.

Worth adding to the dictionary?


FASCINATING! It will perhaps stop people from saying "oe tìyawn nga" (not like they look at the part of speech anyway...)
Really. I cringe when I see uses like that (and other ways of abusing Na'vi).

Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 17, 2011, 10:33:01 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about this in the dictionary. but this is a great new way to look at it! what do you all think?
It was used by karyu Pawl on many occasions. I don't see a problem adding it to the dictionary, as the other .*yawne.* words are in there as well.

but yawne and lu are already in the dictionary. everyone knows you can use adjectives with lu. the question here is should

yawne lu

be treated like some kind of special structure like a si verb or something.

Puvomun

Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 17, 2011, 11:38:28 PM
Quote from: Puvomun on July 17, 2011, 11:28:08 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 17, 2011, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: 'Oma Tirea on July 17, 2011, 10:27:03 PM
!Idea: the verb for "love" is yawne lu, is intransitive unlike in English, and takes the dative just like si verbs.

Worth adding to the dictionary?


FASCINATING! It will perhaps stop people from saying "oe tìyawn nga" (not like they look at the part of speech anyway...)
Really. I cringe when I see uses like that (and other ways of abusing Na'vi).

Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 17, 2011, 10:33:01 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about this in the dictionary. but this is a great new way to look at it! what do you all think?
It was used by karyu Pawl on many occasions. I don't see a problem adding it to the dictionary, as the other .*yawne.* words are in there as well.

but yawne and lu are already in the dictionary. everyone knows you can use adjectives with lu. the question here is should

yawne lu

be treated like some kind of special structure like a si verb or something.

I think the point is that not everyone knows because " "It will perhaps stop people from saying "oe tìyawn nga" "...
Krr a lì'fya lam sraw, may' frivìp utralit.

Ngopyu ayvurä.

Blue Elf

Phrase "nga yawne lu oer" is already in dictionary. IMHO no other action is needed. Maybe add this phrase directly to yawne definition too?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Plumps

Quote from: Blue Elf on July 18, 2011, 01:13:20 AM
Phrase "nga yawne lu oer" is already in dictionary. IMHO no other action is needed. Maybe add this phrase directly to yawne definition too?

Agreed. If people would take the time to look through all the entries they would find it in apendix F.

I always found it strange ... this notion of wanting to know what 'I love you' means in a language that one does not speak otherwise. Nobody asks for the sentence: 'I'm sorry, I think yours is a fascinating language but unfortunately I can't speak it.' :P