Author Topic: Official Na'vi Dictionary  (Read 82669 times)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Dictionary Part II?
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2011, 02:36:34 pm »
I might have been editing it. try again. sorry bout that.

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: The Dictionary Part II?
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2011, 02:39:42 pm »
Well if a major error is corrected, or new vocab is added, it should be generated immediately, IMO. But, for simple typos and minor cleanup edits on existing entries, then a minimum of twice a week. Kefyak?

ta Markì
For me, once a week is enough (even when big change occurs). I'm using it quite often, but forgotting to check for updates
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Offline Puvomun

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Re: The Dictionary Part II?
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2011, 02:42:42 pm »
I might have been editing it. try again. sorry bout that.
Oh wow, now it works.

"This is a test. Eana Eltu traslators, you may add this feed to your reader to get notified of when I add words to the English version."

:-)
Krr a lì'fya lam sraw, may' frivìp utralit.

Ngopyu ayvurä.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Dictionary Part II?
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2011, 02:45:15 pm »
Yes, I have noticed that in all my time here, many poor souls still print it on paper and/or save it on the hard drive. by the time they do that, it's been edited. I can see how once a week is plenty often for this kind of person.

Without a doubt, we will try to add each fresh batch of vocab the same day it's posted though. that happens every month. (afaik)

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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: The Dictionary Part II?
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2011, 03:16:00 pm »
Definition question.

PUM - pum: [pum] PF pn. one (place-holder pronoun referring to a previously mentioned noun or pronoun)

Ins't the indefinite pronoun usage of "one" a finite subset of English uses for the word "one", and a peculiarity in generic usage as just a pronoun.

Is pum is better understood as an alternate for saying this, that, him, her when appearing in a subordinate clause?
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: The Dictionary Part II?
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2011, 03:34:27 pm »
The whole matter of what pum really means might be a good K. Pawl question.

Taronyu would release updates of the dictionary at irregular intervals, sometimes daily or more often. His versioning system (which should be retained) has provisions for changes of varying complexity. That all said, I have no problems with updates that happen weekly. Especially, if that weekly update occurs at approximatelythe same time on the same day each week (but this might be asking a little much).

As far as the stress markings go, the more we can retain the official IPA markings, the better. I like Prrton's idea of changing the font on the pronunciations to one with clearer markings. That would be important enough that I would be willing to spend a good part of a weekend making changes by hand to the font definitions if this would help.

I still use the dictionaries a fair amount because limited time prevents me from really learning the whole vocabulary. (Getting better all the time, though.) I download the vocabulary to my local machines (four of them, in various places, plus my phone), as it is MUCH faster to search there.

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Dictionary Part II?
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2011, 03:54:13 pm »
Definition question.

PUM - pum: [pum] PF pn. one (place-holder pronoun referring to a previously mentioned noun or pronoun)

Ins't the indefinite pronoun usage of "one" a finite subset of English uses for the word "one", and a peculiarity in generic usage as just a pronoun.

Is pum is better understood as an alternate for saying this, that, him, her when appearing in a subordinate clause?

The whole deal with pum is that when we first ever heard of it (paul's blog) it was only seen with the genitive; it was a special structure for translating the possessive pronoun ie mine his hers ours your. from my understanding of its use, seeing the original sentence (with the genitive special structure) and the other time he used it (the "Txewì story" listening comprehension) it seems rather like a place-holder pronoun. that is, it does not have a translation. it is just avoiding repeating a specific noun/pronoun/proper noun. I don't want the dull arrow, I want the sharp one. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Offline Toruk Makto

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2011, 04:20:25 pm »
Just about every use I have seen of pum suggests that the recent definition change is warranted...

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2011, 04:20:50 pm »
Pum is necessary because in Na'vi you cannot have a bare attributive (which encompasses adjectives, genitives and attributive clauses with a).  In some languages you are free to use attributives freely (ancient Greek, Latin), but in others not, including English.  In English we use some combination of "the" and "one" for this, "the big one, the small one, the one of mine" (or just "mine", as special form for this).

So, pum is just an anchor for attributives.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2011, 04:38:20 pm »
Pum is necessary because in Na'vi you cannot have a bare attributive (which encompasses adjectives, genitives and attributive clauses with a).  In some languages you are free to use attributives freely (ancient Greek, Latin), but in others not, including English.  In English we use some combination of "the" and "one" for this, "the big one, the small one, the one of mine" (or just "mine", as special form for this).

So, pum is just an anchor for attributives.

So Annis, how would you define it? it doesn't have an English translation. that's the main problem. it's just a word that has a purpose. like srak and such. (kefyak?)

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2011, 05:36:21 pm »
Pum is necessary because in Na'vi you cannot have a bare attributive (which encompasses adjectives, genitives and attributive clauses with a).  In some languages you are free to use attributives freely (ancient Greek, Latin), but in others not, including English.  In English we use some combination of "the" and "one" for this, "the big one, the small one, the one of mine" (or just "mine", as special form for this).

So, pum is just an anchor for attributives.

So Annis, how would you define it? it doesn't have an English translation. that's the main problem. it's just a word that has a purpose. like srak and such. (kefyak?)

For other languages, "grammar words" or "particles" are often times called such as a separate part of their definition in translations.

With the expanding Lexicon, citing this relationship more completely will become more important I think.

Na'vi Example:

srak(e): ["sRak(E)] PF part. inter. marker for yes or no questions

-------

I am no expert on determining the way to define it, but I would think that keeping PN and adding part. would seem to be appropriate for pum.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2011, 06:38:03 pm »
So Annis, how would you define it?

Sometimes you have to explain rather than define, even in a dictionary.
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Offline Prrton

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2011, 06:51:10 pm »
So Annis, how would you define it?

Sometimes you have to explain rather than define, even in a dictionary.

This is why we need the dictionary to support EXAMPLE SENTENCES. That will empower users to make intelligent decisions.

For the time being, I would call it this:

  Reference anchor for a previously introduced noun within the same sentence.

Anyone is welcome to correct that if necessary and I encourage it.


Offline Puvomun

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2011, 11:15:12 pm »
So Annis, how would you define it?

Sometimes you have to explain rather than define, even in a dictionary.

This is why we need the dictionary to support EXAMPLE SENTENCES. That will empower users to make intelligent decisions.

For the time being, I would call it this:

  Reference anchor for a previously introduced noun within the same sentence.

Anyone is welcome to correct that if necessary and I encourage it.


I would make that:
  Reference anchor for a previously introduced noun within the same or a previous sentence.

My first live encounter with 'pum' happened like this: Ma Puvomun, pum atxantsan lu ngar, as a response to something I had written, which wasn't even quoted in the 'pum'-response. And I agree on the sample sentences. I am still tempted to add a simple example to the 'pum' description in Dutch as that makes things so much clearer.
Krr a lì'fya lam sraw, may' frivìp utralit.

Ngopyu ayvurä.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2011, 11:28:42 pm »

My first live encounter with 'pum' happened like this: Ma Puvomun, pum atxantsan lu ngar, as a response to something I had written, which wasn't even quoted in the 'pum'-response. And I agree on the sample sentences. I am still tempted to add a simple example to the 'pum' description in Dutch as that makes things so much clearer.

I get

"Puvomun, you have a good one"

out of that.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 11:30:16 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Prrton

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2011, 11:32:48 pm »

I would make that:
  Reference anchor for a previously introduced noun within the same or a previous sentence.

My first live encounter with 'pum' happened like this: Ma Puvomun, pum atxantsan lu ngar, as a response to something I had written, which wasn't even quoted in the 'pum'-response. And I agree on the sample sentences. I am still tempted to add a simple example to the 'pum' description in Dutch as that makes things so much clearer.

Ma Puvomun, pum atxantsan lu ngar. is not a grammatical sentence. I assume that it is a mis-interpretation of something like "That was a GREAT one, Puvomun" where the speaker/writer thought that you had written something very clever, or funny and was congratulating you. Pum does not work like that (as far as I know). For examples that are valid:

  Ikran oeyä lu na pum ngeyä. (Pum stands in for ikran.)
  Tuna syulang lu lor to pum arim. (Pum stands in for syulang.)



Offline Puvomun

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2011, 11:38:17 pm »

I would make that:
  Reference anchor for a previously introduced noun within the same or a previous sentence.

My first live encounter with 'pum' happened like this: Ma Puvomun, pum atxantsan lu ngar, as a response to something I had written, which wasn't even quoted in the 'pum'-response. And I agree on the sample sentences. I am still tempted to add a simple example to the 'pum' description in Dutch as that makes things so much clearer.

Ma Puvomun, pum atxantsan lu ngar. is not a grammatical sentence. I assume that it is a mis-interpretation of something like "That was a GREAT one, Puvomun" where the speaker/writer thought that you had written something very clever, or funny and was congratulating you. Pum does not work like that (as far as I know). For examples that are valid:

  Ikran oeyä lu na pum ngeyä. (Pum stands in for ikran.)
  Tuna syulang lu lor to pum arim. (Pum stands in for syulang.)


Ah... things get clearer and clearer. Pum takes the place of "that" in a sentence like: Your ikran is like that of mine. This construction exists in Dutch as well.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2011, 11:48:24 pm »
What if I said to someone:

Ngal nulnew peskot?

and he says back:

pum aean sunu oeru frato.

is this possible?

This might even warrant a separate thread by now...

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Offline Prrton

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2011, 12:33:07 am »
What if I said to someone:

Ngal nulnew peskot?

and he says back:

pum aean sunu oeru frato.

is this possible?

This might even warrant a separate thread by now...

In the context of a live conversation like that, I believe it works because tsko is firmly established.

However, in the example Tsm. Puvomun gave, I would expect:

  Ma Puvomun, ay’lìu/säfpìl/etc. atxantsan lu ngar.

If it were a live chat (even in writing) and everyone involved were telling jokes and pum were replacing a word for "joke" specifically, then I can also see it. It has to exist within a firmly defined context. The noun that it is replacing MUST be firmly established before pum shows up, in my understanding.


Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Dictionary Part II
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2011, 01:02:48 am »
right. also, new words from the blog post goin in. let's see how this goes.

EDIT: words up.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 02:09:20 am by Tirea Aean »

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