Contrasting nominalized phrases: futa vs. tsata

[wm.annis]

Paul is busy working on some Na'vi related things (coaching for the video game, etc.), but I thought I was safe asking him a quick question to which I suspected there was an easy answer.

We have not seen
many examples of tsa'u derived clause nominalization forms. The rule
for using those remains a vague comment about things that are
discourse old. Might they also be used for contrasting clauses?

   Oel new futa fo kivä, slä sa'nokìl new tsata fo 'ivì'awn.
   I want them to go, but mother wants them to stay.

And this was his answer,

I think tsata is OK there. Although the standard choice is futa, tsata is possible and actually preferred in contrasting situations such as this, where it sets off the contrast (this vs. that) and also serves to avoid the repetition of futa.

That said, I'm thinking of how this sentence would be shortened and condensed in colloquial conversation.

One thing I think I've mentioned somewhere is that futa is likely to come out as fta colloquially—i.e, two syllables become one. Likewise, tsata would become tsta. That helps a bit.

Going further, what do you think of these condensations, in increasing order of conciseness:

1. Oel new fta fo kivä, slä sa'nokìl new tsta fo 'ivì'awn.
2. Oel new fta fo kivä, slä sa'nokìl tsta fo 'ivì'awn.
3. Oel new fta fo kivä, slä sa'nokìl tsta ivì'awn.
4. Oel new fta fo kivä, sa'nokìri 'ivì'awn.

I was confused by the fourth one, with the topical, and this was his explanation,

About #4:

One of the uses of the topical is to change focus: I've been talking about A, now I'm turning my attention to B. In English, that function is achieved through phrases like "As for B," "B, on the other hand," "Regarding B, however," etc. So the topical fits in with the idea of contrast. In addition to:

    Po new hivum, oe ke new.

we can have

    Po new hivum, oeri ke new.

1 is perfectly grammatical, but 2 makes the idea of contrast clearer: "He wants to leave; I, on the other hand, don't."

You're right that in the #4 example previously, "mother" has probably already entered the dialog, and the speaker is making a transition to her.

Hope that makes sense!

[Wllìm]

Very nice, I like the shortened phrases in particular as the Na'vi we've seen in the movies generally has the tendency to be quite concise too.

I guess that in the right context, #4 could alternatively mean "I want that they leave, but that my mother stays"? After all, we lost the agentive/patientive case ending to the topical, so there seems to be no way to disambiguate except context

[Toliman]

Eltur tìtxen si Irayo for sharing

[Blue Elf]

Nice that we have got some words about colloquial shortening - it looks very similar to how we shorten sentences in Czech languages (and probably also in other slavic languages):
1. Oel new fta fo kivä, slä sa'nokìl new tsta fo 'ivì'awn.
(Já) chci, aby (oni) šli/odešli, ale matka chce aby (oni) zůstali.
2. Oel new fta fo kivä, slä sa'nokìl tsta fo 'ivì'awn
(Já) chci, aby (oni) šli/odešli, ale matka aby (oni) zůstali.
3. Oel new fta fo kivä, slä sa'nokìl tsta ivì'awn.
(Já) chci, aby (oni) šli/odešli, ale matka aby zůstali.

As in Czech verb changes according subject's gender and number, we can remove pronouns completely:
Chci, aby odešli, ale matka aby zůstali.
That is not possible in Na'vi, but I still like how Na'vi is very close to my native language.

I'm just not comfortable how futa a tsata is shortened to fta / tsta - it looks harder to pronounce for me (and fta also means knot - but context should make it clear), so I would expect fut/tsat - but in such case we loose attributive -a, what makes sentence harder to understand...
Tse, Nawma karyu poltxe - lu koren 

[Toliman]

I still like how Na'vi is very close to my native language.

Srane, oe nìteng

I'm just not comfortable how futa a tsata is shortened to fta / tsta - it looks harder to pronounce for me

Yeah, it sounds a bit strange but I am ok with that

[wm.annis]

I guess that in the right context, #4 could alternatively mean "I want that they leave, but that my mother stays"? After all, we lost the agentive/patientive case ending to the topical, so there seems to be no way to disambiguate except context

By itself that phrase would be ambiguous, but I think given the previous clause the meaning can be inferred to be like the other examples. In particular, the use of the subjunctive is a clue. But I do agree that is a fairly radical abbreviation.

[wm.annis]

Nice that we have got some words about colloquial shortening - it looks very similar to how we shorten sentences in Czech languages (and probably also in other slavic languages):

Hilariously (to me at least), when I first formulated my example question to email him I used either #2 or #3 at first, but then decided to do the full sentence for the purposes of the example.

I do appreciate having more examples like this from Paul. Especially the different versions of the same thing, which give us a model of how he thinks about different kinds of elision. In normal language I'd expect #2 or #3 to be far more common than #1.

[Tìtstewan]

Fì'u eltur tìtxen seiyi ulte irayo seiyi ngar fwa ngal fìfmawnit tolìng nì'eng ayoer.

tsta and fta are interesting and when I've read it first, I got a fta in my head, hrh.

[Toliman]

and when I've read it first, I got a fta in my head, hrh.

Me too

[Blue Elf]

Fì'u eltur tìtxen seiyi ulte irayo seiyi ngar fwa ngal fìfmawnit tolìng nì'eng ayoer.

tsta and fta are interesting and when I've read it first, I got a fta in my head, hrh.

That's why I pointed out that it is already existing word. Welcome in land of confusion   

[Toliman]

Fì'u eltur tìtxen seiyi ulte irayo seiyi ngar fwa ngal fìfmawnit tolìng nì'eng ayoer.

tsta and fta are interesting and when I've read it first, I got a fta in my head, hrh.

That's why I pointed out that it is already existing word. Welcome in land of confusion   

Sometimes it can be funny confusion